Comparing Vendetta to DF speeds

[RojoRacing]

Will there be any permanent issue as a result of your recent injuries?

Sadly I don't see how there aren't going to be with how things are progressing so far. If I was going to get back to 100% I would have made much better progress without any of these other complications. I don't want to entertain the idea, but it is back there in the corner of my mind that I may never be able to mtb in the way I used to. I do well to not think about it unless someone asks me when I'm going to get back on my mtb. The idea of being stuck on the road from this point forward makes me want to puke.

Yes there's little doubt in my mind about whether I could train to be on par professional cyclists. I have the ability to be as fast as them but I lack the needed support to achieve such motivation. I'm the kind of person who thrives through competition with other people. Put someone like me into a team training camp style system and I'll pull myself apart to be faster than the other racers. Note how said faster, I never try and be as fast as someone, I always aim to be better and that's an important part of visualizing your goals. Most of the time visualizing a unachievable goal will still get you further then a goal you think you can achieve because that's the thing about goals, who to say what your potential is.

What I suffer from is a lack of regular occurring competition. If I only had faster people to ride with I would raise to the challenge. Take my noon ride group for example, those guys are damn fast but at this point I'm faster. I started out being able to hang at the front and take some pulls then moved onto pulling more then everyone else and now I can drop everyone on demand unless I wear the weight vest. All of that is on the DF bike, on the Vendetta there's no competition at all at this point unless I give myself 3 min handicaps and such which is less fun.

I actually did ok when Ratz gave me challenging workouts but when the plan gave me an easy day I couldn't bring myself to do it because it was boring and I'd get stuck because I'd feel guilty for not doing the easy day and I wouldn't continue onto the next hard day. If you're thinking I'm making the whole idea of training harder then it should be then you're correct but that's how my mind works. Now that I'm back outside maybe I can do my easy days outside and a couple hard days inside with trainer sessions but if I'm going to be on the trainer I'd rather just race in zwift. I probably need one of those drill sergeant type coaches with a leather whip to keep me on track.

 

[jond]

Sadly I don't see how there aren't going to be with how things are progressing so far. If I was going to get back to 100% I would have made much better progress without any of these other complications. I don't want to entertain the idea, but it is back there in the corner of my mind that I may never be able to mtb in the way I used to. I do well to not think about it unless someone asks me when I'm going to get back on my mtb. The idea of being stuck on the road from this point forward makes me want to puke.

Yes there's little doubt in my mind about whether I could train to be on par professional cyclists. I have the ability to be as fast as them but I lack the needed support to achieve such motivation. I'm the kind of person who thrives through competition with other people. Put someone like me into a team training camp style system and I'll pull myself apart to be faster than the other racers. Note how said faster, I never try and be as fast as someone, I always aim to be better and that's an important part of visualizing your goals. Most of the time visualizing a unachievable goal will still get you further then a goal you think you can achieve because that's the thing about goals, who to say what your potential is.

What I suffer from is a lack of regular occurring competition. If I only had faster people to ride with I would raise to the challenge. Take my noon ride group for example, those guys are damn fast but at this point I'm faster. I started out being able to hang at the front and take some pulls then moved onto pulling more then everyone else and now I can drop everyone on demand unless I wear the weight vest. All of that is on the DF bike, on the Vendetta there's no competition at all at this point unless I give myself 3 min handicaps and such which is less fun.

I actually did ok when Ratz gave me challenging workouts but when the plan gave me an easy day I couldn't bring myself to do it because it was boring and I'd get stuck because I'd feel guilty for not doing the easy day and I wouldn't continue onto the next hard day. If you're thinking I'm making the whole idea of training harder then it should be then you're correct but that's how my mind works. Now that I'm back outside maybe I can do my easy days outside and a couple hard days inside with trainer sessions but if I'm going to be on the trainer I'd rather just race in zwift. I probably need one of those drill sergeant type coaches with a leather whip to keep me on track.

Leather whip lol how bout a wise rubber mallet

Hear what you are saying about easy days. Found myself doubling up on easy days or not posting additions which says a lot about me being a total wanker

Need to trust scientific training model more and recognise the benefit of rest in training. But I like to ride and it is hard to give up something that has maybe worked for a long time. Dumb habit I know.

I am sure you being ultra competitive will give you all the training impetus you need. That and the weight vest when it's cool enough will provide a great kick along with the kickr zwift Smashfest races.

These targeted events you speak of will keep you goal focused

We are talking small percentages here of improvement anyway and heaps time to vary training.

Sustained hand injuries ironically on df which keep me off mtn bikes and enduro moto .Sucks. But turned to hiking for nature fix and v for speed thrills. Old enough now for an adventure style motorbike lol.

Good luck with recovery sometimes it can take a few years so bide your time you are young yet. No limits ever even in the face of a setback is hanging tough. Assess again in a couple years .

Being stuck on road not so bad. And should have great benefit for next epic mtb race. Maybe gravel racing or cyclo cross can play a part?

Keep smiling and thanks for sharing. Inspiration.

 

[RojoRacing]

Please don't use the word gravel around me, it puts in a a right ol bad mood

 

[RojoRacing]

Looks like I'll be getting another chance to go up against Marko Baloh this weekend in a modest 200 miler. He crushed the course record of last weeks double century race over here in California and he said he's going to stick around for another this weekend. I'm not sure why he's in California this time of year since RAAM is along ways off but it'll be cool to race against someone a fast as he is when drafting isn't illegal. He won't be the only fast DF rider in the pack ether. Since this is known as one of the faster 200 mile courses there quite a few guys who show up looking to go sub 10hrs. I look forward to witnessing how the race will play out when drafting is involved. My plan is to try and average 210 watts for the whole thing and see who much I have left in the tank if anything.

 

[1happyreader]

Have a good race !
???? wrist braces do you any good ???
10 hrs is a looong time.

 

[anotherbrian]

C'mon now. Had I known you were doing Solvang I would have taken a friends spot who is sick and brought my F-40 down.

 

[RojoRacing]

late reg closes tomorrow so maybe you can still transfer.

 

[anotherbrian]

late reg closes tomorrow so maybe you can still transfer.

I've signed up for next weeks Davis 300K. I couldn't do two of those in a row.

Good luck on the ride.

 

[trplay]

Looks like I'll be getting another chance to go up against Marko Baloh this weekend

Go freaking for it! Will be rooting like a ground hog for you.

 

[RojoRacing]

I've signed up for next weeks Davis 300K. I couldn't do two of those in a row.

Good luck on the ride.

Does that one have much in the way of dirt or stream crossings? maybe I'll join you next weekend

 

[anotherbrian]

0 dirt, just bumpy Yolo, Napa, and Lake County Roads. It's the first half of the Davis Double, with slightly different farm roads at the start.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/2143351

[Not sure if you know what brevets are, so ignore if you do] It's a non-competitive but timed ride. It's a bell curve on speeds ... some finish in 10 hours, some in 20, most somewhere in between. Rest stop is at ~mile 65, then at the turn around most of the way up Cobb Mountain at ~93, then same rest stop from outbound at ~mile 121. You need to ride a 2, 3, 4, and 600K to qualify to ride a 1200K (Silver State 508 will also take the 2,3,4,6 as a qualifier to ride solo unsupported).

 

[RojoRacing]

0 dirt, just bumpy Yolo, Napa, and Lake County Roads. It's the first half of the Davis Double, with slightly different farm roads at the start.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/2143351

[Not sure if you know what brevets are, so ignore if you do] It's a non-competitive but timed ride. It's a bell curve on speeds ... some finish in 10 hours, some in 20, most somewhere in between. Rest stop is at ~mile 65, then at the turn around most of the way up Cobb Mountain at ~93, then same rest stop from outbound at ~mile 121. You need to ride a 2, 3, 4, and 600K to qualify to ride a 1200K (Silver State 508 will also take the 2,3,4,6 as a qualifier to ride solo unsupported).

Yeah I know what they are and almost did one once but bailed last minute for some reason I can no longer recall. How long do you expect it to take you to finish? Do you typically keep yourself moving or do you kill a bunch of time talking to people at the aid stations?

Could be a good excuse to test out a pair of 28mm tires before doing the tour of Unknown coast which I recommend you try if you want to see some amazing land and trees.

 

[anotherbrian]

Back when I had my motos (R80G/S and R1100GS) I rode all around up there (starting at south end where Highway 1 goes inland up to Honeydew and Petrolia), but never been there on a bicycle.

I was going to race the 300K. I don't know that I want to race _you_, but I didn't see any reason I couldn't beat what I think is the current course record of 10h13m. I can carry enough water that I'll only need to stop at the 65mi control to check in. The bike weighs ~37lbs dry, so I'll be granny gearing up the Cobb Mtn climb, but I should be able to make all that up and more on the flats.

 

[RojoRacing]

If that's the case I wouldn't mind cruising with you. Remind me next week after I e cleared this weekend race out of my head.

 

[anotherbrian]

Will do.

 

[Barefoot Biker]

Comparing the Vendetta to conventional Diamond Frame speeds is exactly one of the things I wanted to understand when I was researching recumbents. I found a lot of information that said the Vendetta was faster and I looked at race results, but what it doesn't tell you is how fast would *I* be on that bike?

So, I had a few KOM's before I got the Vendetta, and I was faster on the Vendetta by the end of the first week, however, what's really important to understand is that I adapted slowly. After a month I was faster. Another month and I was faster still. Now, one thing that I did is keep training on both bikes. So, for comparison, it was me riding the Vendetta vs. me riding an S-Works Tarmac. A lot of people asked me if the muscles were different. I believe the answer is yes. On the Vendetta my upper body is more laid back. On the Tarmac I am fighting to get my upper body lower and out of that horrible wind. As a result, I can notice a difference in my hip flexors. They are more stretched out on the Vendetta. This is about the same position as on the Tarmac when standing, but the proportion of time in that position is 100% on the Vendetta vs. 5% on the Tarmac.

One thing that was really cool though was that I got faster on both bikes. It used to be the case that I would have to stop because my wrists hurt. My back hurt. My neck hurt. Et cetera. On the Vendetta, the only thing that ever hurt were my muscles. This was great because it meant that I could keep going. Because I never stopped as the result of discomfort, I got to keep training my legs and yes, the training does seem to transfer.

I'm not the fastest rider by any means on my Tarmac compared to others, but on my Vendetta, there is no one in the group that can even hope to pull around me. I can essentially take any KOM I choose in this area.

Where I ride, it is completely flat. I can go for a one hundred mile ride with zero feet of elevation gain. So, in a way, every segment in Strava is the same. The only difference is the length. So, anyway - what I was super curious about was - for the same rider - in the same conditions - on the same flat road - what is the difference in speed between the two bikes!?

https://www.strava.com/activities/840822213 <-- Tarmac, 35.6mph
https://www.strava.com/activities/841090609 <-- Vendetta, 38.9mph

So, there you have it. Same rider. Same day. Same flat ground. Same max effort on my part. What was the difference? About 10% ... This was all downwind. The Vendetta's advantage increases into the wind. On flat ground, it is entirely about aerodynamics. The result of this particular test is essentially the same as every other comparison I have attempted. On flat ground, for me, the Vendetta is always about 10% faster. In a way, that might not seem like a lot, but it's huge. It's the difference between succeeding in a solo break way and getting dropped by the peloton.

Going up hill, at some point the Tarmac is going to reclaim the advantage. It's much lighter, but also, when the speed drops below around 8mph, you can use more body english when standing to balance. It's easier. What goes up must come down and going down, advantage goes back to the Vendetta without a doubt. I would be curious to know - what is that grade of road that hits this tipping point where the weight of the bike matters more than the aerodynamics?

Another thing I should mention, since we're talking about KOM's is - how am I getting along with the other riders in the area? I'll be honest. There have been some hurt feelings, mostly friendly teasing and banter, but even some outbursts of anger. There are some KOM's that I didn't take just so that I would have something to try for on my Tarmac. Anyway, I'm still riding with the group and we've even had a couple more recumbents join the fray. One of the comments at the start of the ride made to me was "Who are you going to ride with on that?" My response was, "Anyone that can keep up!"

How did it go in your race this weekend?

 

[Don1]

i think he won. broke a course record and beat marko... looking at the times... i could be wrong thou... confirmation to cone from more reliable sources

 

[RojoRacing]

i think he won. broke a course record and beat marko... looking at the times... i could be wrong thou... confirmation to cone from more reliable sources

Wouldn't say I beat Marko as it was more of a gentlemans race between us. I did pull for 190 of the 192 miles, it's hard to say how much he had left in the tank but I was fairly spent at mile 150 but recovered in the last 30 to make Marko earn that draft. Quick data for the day had me at an average of 202 and Marko at 232. That's a large improvement over the difference between 150 vs 216 in our 24hr efforts. It seems he was able to save around 30 or so watts by sitting in my draft.

I'll try and get a report out soon but here's cool picture from my face time camera.

 

[anotherbrian]

Congrats.

I looked at the fly-by and it didn't appear you tried to drop him on the downhill towards the end so figured you were finishing together.

Awesome that he's crushing it on a basic Tarmac or Roubaix rather than some aero road bike.

 

[DavidCH]

Congrats. I saw Marko at Sebring. It must have been one of the highlights for you this year and I bet it beats riding in front of that screen.

Well done