Farther, Faster, Fitter, Fun - (4F - The unofficial Cruzbike training team and support group)

Discussion in 'Cruzbike Class (Riding & Refining your Technique)' started by ratz, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Ok a couple of good points in here to cover.

    1) If your Powertap supports the Bluetooth upgrade that is the cleanest way; then you can use any iPhone on the Road to record the workout. I switched to the wahoo BT/Ant+ speed sensor; BT/Ant+ cadence just to make that easier. Meanwhile The Android app is due any time now; and would work with BT as well; not to mention that some Android phone have ANT+ in them too. Maybe @Nick Kanwetz will decloak and comment on the status of the Android app. From the podcast comment they sound like they are really close.

    2) The other way is to get the wahoo key for http://www.wahoofitness.com/devices/wahoo-key-16.html for Iphone. Still works with the newer iphones via a dongle adapter; we did that all last winter until I got BT cadence sensors.

    3) The also one option for the open road stuff if you can't record workouts in that venue (example you have and ipad or windows laptop but not an iphone) ; is to use the low volume trainer road track during the summer. That's only 3 trainer rides a week which leaves room for up to 4 rides out door. The timing of the days is mostly up to your personal recovery rate. Makes it flexible to work around the weather. Since you certainly can record outdoor rides with your Garmin 1000 you'll be able to sync those to Garmin connect which links to Training Peaks too. So indoor training flows to Trainer Road ; while Outdoor rides flows to GC and everything ends up in TrainingPeaks. Peaks is where I make sure you don't over train or become so randomly that it doesn't work. You won't get the same quality outdoors for the workout; therefore I like to think of indoors as Workouts, and outdoors as Rides, and we combine them to see all of your Training.

    4) Obviously it's better if you can capture the outdoors stuff in Trainer Road if you can and if that if where you spend your most time; and have the best gear. But I will be the first to admit I do not capture my outdoor rides in TrainerRoad they are two long at 6 hours and while my phone has the batter for that it never runs that long without disconnecting from the sensors. Dam long recumbent bikes :) Because of that I'm waiting for them to allow us to upload our ride .FIT files into their database it's on the roadmap. (A good place for trainerroad members to vote for features is https://trainerroad.uservoice.com/forums/131395-general/filters/top my personal top on is: https://trainerroad.uservoice.com/f...ions/3439645-garmin-workout-format-fit-export )
  2. Cruzbike Chris

    Cruzbike Chris Well-Known Member

    Ok Bob, now I'm throughly confused. I have the older G2 Powertap so not Bluetooth and an iPhone 5c and a Windows computer. So how do I get started now?
    joy likes this.
  3. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Opps sorry .... I was worried I'd do that (working with this stuff I get a bit to close to it);
    let me close some loops and I'll double back and lay out the items. That will be useful to write down.
  4. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Ok Let's break this down.

    For Just Recording out door ride.
    Use your Garmin 1000 and Power Tap to record your Rides.
    Sync Garmin 1000 to Garmin Connect; I assume you have a Free Connect account.
    Link your Garmin Connect Account to Training Peaks to automatically Sync your you rides to TP.

    For Outdoor Training with Trainer Road
    If you want to try and do the structured Training outdoors; you can get an Wahoo Ant+ Key for your iPhone.
    To use the ANT+ Key with an iPhone5c you would need this adapter from apple http://tinyurl.com/jurkj97
    The Wahoo key would allow The trainerRoad iPhone App to read the power from your PowerTap and any other ANT+ sensors
    You load the workout on the phone and go ride it outdoors; this can be harder to do than indoor because terrain matters.
    Those is flatter states will have more luck
    Some way to mount the phone on the bike in a visible place will be needed

    For indoor Training with Trainer Road with the PowerTap
    Bike goes on to the Trainer.
    PowerTap will be a great source for power.
    You could use the iPhone app and the wahoo dongle just discussed to run/record you workout.
    Or You can use a windows laptop running the trainer road app.
    To make your windows laptop ANT+ capable you use a ANT+ usb stick like this generic one http://tinyurl.com/zsvs6b9

    For indoor Training with Trainer Road WITHOUT the PowerTap

    Bike goes on to the Trainer.
    You could use the iPhone app and the wahoo dongle just discussed to run/record you workout.
    Or You can use a windows laptop running the trainer road app.
    To make your windows laptop ANT+ capable you use a ANT+ usb stick like this generic one http://tinyurl.com/zsvs6b9
    A speed and cadence sensor are all that is used; TrainerRoad will calculate "virtualpower" as long as your trainer is one of the many supported non-Erg Models. The support trainers are documented about ⅓ of the way down this page: https://www.trainerroad.com/virtual-power
    If you have all BlueTooth sensors all you need is the iphone without the dongle.

    Summary (really short version)
    a) For training use a phone or computer as appropriate with an ANT+ dongle to run and record your training with TrainerRoad App. Capture power from your Power tap. TrainerRoad will sync the workouts to Training Peaks.

    b) For outdoor riding; when not doing training; record on Garmin; upload to Garmin connect; should be automatic with your Garmin 1000; Link Garmin Connect to training peaks so your data flow over automatically after you ride. Once it's setup it just happens no effort involve.

    Capturing the "just a ride" date is important to monitor total exercise / riding load to ensure you don't over train.

  5. cranky cyclist

    cranky cyclist Well-Known Member

    Can I use a Garmin 500 for outdoor riding? I do have a Garmin connect account.
  6. Dave Arnold

    Dave Arnold Active Member

    Yes. I have a Garmin Edge 500 that I sync with TrainingPeaks via GarminConnect. Works perfect.
  7. Eric Winn

    Eric Winn Zen MBB Master

    I haven't looked at the Trainer Road app yet but for Training Peaks, I experimented with a ride from the other day. Downloaded it as a TCX history file from Ride With GPS as the data was captured with the iOS RWGPS app. Uploaded that file to TrainingPeaks here.

    I'm not fond of dealing with an ANT+ dongle. So far I've done all of my data capture with BTLE.

  8. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    BTLE is preferred on the TrainerRoad Apps; we just were discussing that relative to the older powertap wheel which is only ANT+
  9. Eric Winn

    Eric Winn Zen MBB Master

    Yeah, I just downloaded the app to my iPhone and was checking their site FAQs to see that all the stuff I use seems to be supported.

    I might need to get a speed sensor. I quit using the one I had because I kept bumping it. I've just been using GPS for speed.

  10. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    on the kickr no speed sensor needed. On the road not so important day one; the new Wahoo wheel hub unit is really nice.
  11. Eric Winn

    Eric Winn Zen MBB Master

    Bob, any idea if TrainerRoad will take cadence from my Stages but get and control power via my KICKR? I'm being lazy and don't want to put the bike on the KICKR just yet. ;)

    It annoys me no end that the Wahoo Fitness App recognizes both my KICKR and my Stages devices but won't let me combine settings to pull cadence from the Stages and everything else from the KICKR. Or both would be cool to compare power readings between the two...

    I think I'll order one of these: http://www.wahoofitness.com/devices/bluetooth-speed-sensor.html

  12. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Yes you can get cadence from the stages. You can also use power match where power come from the stages and the trainer road tweaks the wahoo based on the stages power and not the kickr power this way you get the same power readings on the kickr and the road. This is how Larry trains and it is the best way. I am too lazy to move my pedals so I only do that in the off season.
  13. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Ok I promised to post some of this outside the TR paywall so people could review; but we are fast getting into the details that only work if you are joining the project and actually doing indoor training in a controlled environment. So keep that in mind when reviewing. Step 3 will also get posted, but after that additional steps will be of extremely limited value to someone not using Trainer Road as we'll be diverging into specialty training based on individual goals.

    Step 2 – MAF Capacity alignment to FTP Capacity process

    Ok you have completed your FTP test. Excellent; and a whole lot of fun it was right? Ok maybe not. Please send me your FTP result so that I can enter it into Training Peaks; and calculate your power zones. We will be using Strava’s power zones because so many people like to get mutual encouragement there. This saves you having to translate in your head. These are based on Andrew Cogans standard traditional six. Heart Rate Zone will also be Coggan bases using a Threshold value that aligns you with 180-age. This yields zones that perfectly match Training Peaks and are can be mimicked in Strava.

    If you explore the TrainerRoad interface, you find that you can record your weight in the system and it will calculate your Watts/Kg, this is a very fun stat to know. Those willing to share their weight can do so; simply weigh yourself weekly and enter the number into your Training peaks web interface. If you are lazy like me, you can get a Wi-Fi scale that does it automatically. We use a Withings.com WDS50, which I like because it does both body fat and weight, and withhings.com auto updates my weight at Strava and TrainingPeaks so I do not have to. If you want accurate graphics in TrainerRoad.com you’ll need to manually update your weight at least once a week. The Training Peaks entry is more useful to me as it rolls into the analysis software and it will make your graphs more accurate.

    Ok now that you have your FTP you can be begin to conduct your MAF Base line work. At this point, you should have selected whether you are going to do Low, Medium or High volume Traditional base.

    If you review each of the plans, you might think they are a little boring. Yes, the first 4-week block is indeed boring from a variety standpoint. Each week the training block is the same workout each time. This repetition is intentional; it will let you begin to create a solid aerobic base. Non-Ultra riders will ride the 4-week block as specified. Ultra riders will repeat weeks 2 and 3 a second time before doing week 4. For Ultra’s the a sequence is (1,2,3,2,3,4).

    A sidebar: if you primary goal is weight loss until you hit XXX weight; then you will repeat the first 8 weeks over and over until you hit your target weight. That will allow you to build an aerobic base that will either increase your FTP or maintain it; while you continue to drop weight. It is incredibly difficult to loose weight and gain FTP; this approach is one of the few that seems to work really well for a broad spectrum of people. Diet of course plays a huge role and there are several approaches you can be pointed to depending on your lifestyle if you need help there just ask and we'll see if we can point you to the resources to get you going and that align with your Dietary preferences.

    So for each of these rides you will:
    • Get on the trainer
    • Make sure you have a fan to keep you cool and control your heart rate
    • Make sure you have water to drink,
    • Calculate your MAF heart rate (180 minus you age.)
    • Ride the ride with Cadence of 85-95 if possible. (This may not be feasible your first 2 weeks)
    • Try and be consistent with your RPM
    • Monitor you heart rate during the session. If you get close to exceeding your MAF limit you will need to either: slow you cadence to lower your heart-rate, or lower the percentage difficulty level of the workout.
    • The app has a lot of great form drills in it; try and do them when you can, but mind your HR make MAF the priority over the drills. Most of the drills will make you a better MBB pedaler.
    The number 1 goal of each ride for the first 8-weeks will be to keep you HR below the 180 minus age limit, 3-4 points below is optimal but 10-12 is still good too. If you are younger you may be prone to staying even slightly lower because your ceiling is so much higher. This just fine. After week-8, we will start introducing brief harder sprint work during the workouts.

    You will find this to be harder than you think. It is not uncommon to find yourself thinking this first workout is too easy on day 2; and then after 30 minutes you will think it is just awful and you'll never finish it, hang in there is you'll be able to finish it. As you proceed through each workout, it will become easier as you adapt. It may take up to 5-6 weeks before you can ride the workouts at the prescribed difficulty and stay in an aerobic HR zone. Patience will be key here. The first few rides can be very frustrating. I will be providing feedback on the first rides to let you know how you are doing based on what the data says.

    You will likely experience decoupling on all of your first rides. Decoupling will show up as you riding along at X watts for Y heart Rate. Y will be below your MAF limit; and then all of a sudden your heart rate Y will go up 20% and you will be over your MAF Limit. You will then need to lower your Watts or Cadence to get back under the MAF limit. Your Heart rate has then decoupled from your Watt production in the wrong direction. This is normal and it means your training is working and the stimulus has pushed you over the boundary. This effect is what we seek for rapid improvement. The balance of that training session will then become hugely valuable. Suffer strong and finish in the limits. The body will take this input; and begin to adapt. As you rest and recover it will start to metabolically adjust; after a couple rides like this the decoupling will happen later and later; and eventually it will stop.

    To recap, the goal here is to align your Aerobic Capacity with your Muscular Strength. Most people new to training, but not new to riding, will have a certain amount of strength endurance. You will likely have generated your FTP by gutting through the workout using everything you have to work with. That includes both your Aerobic (FAT burning Capacity) an your Anaerobic (Sugar burning Capacity). Most of "America" and other parts of the “Western Culture”; has crap for Aerobic capacity. Default diets and lifestyles in the western culture just do not foster or promote strong aerobic development. During the 12 - 16 weeks at the start of this program; we are going to focus on getting your Aerobic base inline with your Muscular Strength. This will allow you to ride for much longer on your body and dietary fat; thus spreading your limited and finite glucose reserves over a much longer time scale. If you successfully complete this phase you will be able to ride much farther, at a faster pace; and you'll be holding court as the king or queen of conversation, meanwhile others riding with you will be sucking wind begging you to shut-up so they can focus on their un-trained pain.

    To close I want to cover the timing of eating around the workouts. These are long fat burning workouts; they are designed to train your body to burn fat. You will get maximum advantage from them if you can align them around fasting. If you are a ride in the morning person; then hold off on Breakfast until after your workout. If you are a ride at night person, try to go to bed after the workout without anything more than a little protein heavy (food hardboiled eggs are the classic example) pick something aligned with your Diet of choice, but make a good choice. The theory here is simple. It takes an average person 1.5 hrs to burn through their glucose then at that time the body has no choice but to switch to fat to run on and that intern forces it to adapt to burn fat better. These workouts are in the fat burning zone and they are all at least 1.5 hours. They strive to have you burn off your glucose. If you are aerobically weak this will almost always force you onto the fat for fuel. If you come in fasted from the night sleep you will have a very low blood glucose reserve and you will get into fat training mode much sooner, as the muscle glucose is exhausted and thereby getting you a longer training stimulus on the fat as a fuel source. If you do an evening ride you will get to fat burning state by the end; then as long as you do not slam carbs back into your system right after the ride you will stay in the fat burning mode for many hours after. This after glow period has the same adaptive effect as the morning riding training session does, but more of it is occurring post ride. If you ride midday then try to eat very moderate at lunch and delay dinner until at least 2 hours after your ride; the result will be almost as good as the other two approaches; it just that sleeping time advantage that you lose out on. With these type of workouts you do not need to worry about slamming carbs back into your system to replenish the glucose. They are sufficient time with rest to let that just happen naturally; thus allowing you to stay in fat burning mode as long as possible.

    Step 3 will be posted in about 5 days. Step three will explain using what your indoor data says about your Aerobic capacity and how to ride and develop it outdoors even-though outdoors, due to temperature, your HR meter become useless for tracking your Aerobic zone output. This will only be useful to people that have at least 2 weeks of step 2 done; and for most it's more like 4 weeks of step 2. It does require a power meter (powercal HR meter will work too). So stay tuned. In the meantime we will focus on making people successful with Step 1 and 2.
    Dave Arnold and LarryOz like this.
  14. DavidCH

    DavidCH In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity

    Well there seems to be a lot going on in this thread so I thought of taking an impromptu look into the goings on in Training Peaks and the Cruzbike leaderboard. "Good Game chaps ... Good game."

    So anyone apart from Bob and Larry feel a bit left out? Ahhhh so that's why I need Training Peaks. :rolleyes:

    Well I took a look and massed some of my data with it and now I am trying to understand the graphs. I think I will have to go back to college and get another degree or perhaps I need to enrol in the Training Peaks certification package. So all good stuff. Not sure what I want out of it as I don't feel as though I need to prove anything. If I wanted to improve my average speed as my top speed on the flat is 53kph I would need to get into a velodrome at 3 in the morning ... No wind and no interruptions and no red traffic lights, of course I could instantly be in the front of the leaderboard too. I jest. It's been so hot here that it's probably not a bad idea but I would need to build a velodrome. :D

    What I did find interesting is maximizing on the riding opportunities that you have. There's a programme for sprinting, there's a programme for endurance and all sorts from $25
    to $99.

    Also in this thread there is a lot of reference to ANT+ but if your a wahoo iPhone geek like me then I think you can upload just fine without a Garmin just by using wahoo fitness.

    So for me I will concentrate on using that great big daisy cutter of a chainwheel to mow down as many DF's I can. With a DF you can repeatedly yank on the middle of the bars to increase acceleration but I have yet not been able to find the same catalyst with the V, I guess it could come with the turbo sprint seat that might be coming out soon.

    Guess I need more gym training with squats and barbels too and switch my diet to eating pea protein; apparently it grows muscle faster and better for your metabolism. That way I can get into the bigger gear and get faster. I noticed that I don't go much above 35kph in 2 hours. Perhaps 10 times. I am, like many of you just on the fat losing programme and this thread is of incredible value.

    Perhaps when I get to 77kg I will change my training structure.

    The other thing is I have many different bikes so it's kind of a little mixed to see my results on strava.

    My heart rate data always goes with the V so I differentiate most of my V rides with that in mind.

    My excuse is that if I am on the V I want to race all the time which isn't what we want for fat burning.
  15. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Yeah there's some of that; the free tool does have an amazing amount of stuff in it. I actually don't use it. I sync it to WKO4 which is the desktop app. It is even crazier but it's programable like a spreadsheet so I only have to build my stuff once and I can apply it to multiple people. Lacking that it takes about 2 weeks to understand Trainpeaks and why you might care.

    BT and Ant+ are about equal it's just that garmin users have to use ANT+ because Garmin owns it and refused to support BTLE. Many older sensors are ANT+ but most modern ones are DUAL ANT+/BTLE. So there's really no bias. No one ever complained that a piece of tech was ruined by adding. So a Wahoo iPhone geek is in many ways better off than a Garmin geek but there is a solution for everyone. Wahoo <--> Strava <--> Training Peaks is fully automated. And there is always https://tapiriik.com/# for $5 per year; or free if you want to go click the button manually that can sync any service to any other one; or at least the ones that matter.

    That's because you are fast and fit; every once and a while you need an off season (even with your weather) I get my hands on your training for 8 weeks and the next On season you be even scarier faster ;)
  16. Dave Arnold

    Dave Arnold Active Member

    Hi folks. Just a quick comment on setting up your CB on a trainer before a session...

    On my last session on the trainer I was getting cramps in my right leg and I started to wonder if I had a leg length discrepancy. Then, I realized my rear wheel wasn't aligned with the front wheel so I was skew. It wasn't very much, but enough to cause I slight difference in my leg reach.

    I don't know how long my bike on the trainer has been been like this.
    LarryOz, ratz and Bruce B like this.
  17. DavidCH

    DavidCH In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity

    Bob, I know myself quite well and to be truthful I always need to step back before I commit myself. I already know that I will be 3 kilos lighter in 8 weeks anyway; that in itself is a huge performance gain. But the "scarier faster"... perhaps not. So eight weeks you say? Holiday time in Spain is 3 months... and all the prices get hiked up so they are twice as expensive and so I don't travel... just try to keep cool unless its too hot in which case we take off in the car up to the North of Spain(bike included). So eight weeks of torment? I should be able to commit to this in July if possible? Do I need a power meter? And am I good for training outside? I am always looking at my cadence rate and heart rate, just as much as looking in the mirror. I already have an account with training peaks so what else do I need to do?
  18. SamP

    SamP Guru

    Hmmm.. without a trainer or a power meter, it looks like I can't do an FTP test in TrainerRoad? Can I even do the other TrainerRoad workouts without one or the other?
  19. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Yes that is a rub; to do the structured training in Trainer road we need an FTP value; that requirement is because the Works are universal but Scaled in difficulty to your strength based on your FTP value. The volume of training is controlled by measuring your TSS which is a power based metric. This scalability is why training with power is so popular and successful. While power meters are still expensive; old fashioned trainers are not; and tons of them are supported by trainerroad. You can get into that for a small investment example Travel Trac Comp Fluid Trainer is $139 and fully support. The only probably with fluid trainer is you gotta want it; as they take discipline to ride; but the entry cost (relative) is cheaper. The complete list of support ones is here: https://www.trainerroad.com/virtual-power if you narrow it down to 2-3 you can justify the cost of; you can email their support and they will whisper in your ear if one is stand out better than the other. Everything on the list they have tested and ridden as far as I know.

    You could in theory do the plan outdoors with out a power meter but the results would be pretty tough. Training Peaks is built around power, for outdoors you could use a POWERCAL $129 HR meter which can estimate power. That would work, but not with TrainerRoad. Given the choice between try to guide someone outdoors only on a Powercal or indoors on a low cost trainer; I would opt for the Trainer as it's going to give better results.

    the rub with all of this; is until you experience how well it works you can't really evaluate how it works with your goals. We here in my household are freaks; we have two bikes on two trainers in front of a TV; that's where the wife and I do all our limited TV watching; only when we pedal. Busy lives yield crazy things. Also means we have really old couches that don't need replacing cause they are only used by the kids and there's not money left for new furniture :)

    So rambly way of saying; I will help you do it with neither if you want; it may not work well; if money it tight but you are going to do something get a entry level trainer. If you are going to get serious get an ERG trainer. You'll notice that no one ever sells a Kickr used on Ebay (once in a blue moon maybe) ; that should give you an idea of how well they work.
  20. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Best results will be indoors on a trainer; that's always the best investment; because if it's too hot, too wet, too early or too late you can always get on the trainer pedal and watch a movie. And time is a good time especially if it's the offseason. All winter and spring I ride at 8pm-1am because kids gone to college; summer house is full; I get up at 4:30am and ride until 7am ish; the trainer makes that flexibility possible. I can't get outdoors daily in June but August-October it's a tone of out doors; schedule very life is crazy; but the trainer is always the safety net so I can pedal when the time always but the bike might not.

    The reason for the trainer and indoor; it to put you in a controlled environment where you get maximum return for your time. 1 hour on the trainer with 80% concentration = 2 hours on the road with 100% concentration. So double your bang for you buck. The second part is we want to combine your HR with your Power to get you better on the road understanding. HR is really hard to control out doors. But indoors in a temp controlled room and 8 small weeks you can learn when your body is Aerobic and when it's not; and what power you can push at each level. during the training you become stronger aerobically. Then when you head out on the real roads; if you have a power meter you will actually understand what it is telling you; and you can use that to manage your rides and maximize your output potential.

    The real problem with power meter is most people put them on the bike and go; oh look more numbers; I don't know what they mean but they sure are pretty. The end game here is to get you to the point that you can use your power meter to at least manage true intensity of your rides. That's 1 small step better than "ooh pretty numbers"

    So that leaves us with step 1: use a trainer; invest there first; If you can afford ERG go for it; if not get a affordable fluid on; At the very least this will make you fitter and faster for less effort. Step 2: get a power meter or use a powercal hr; go on the open road and truly understand how hard you are working regardless of wind; road surface etc; so that you can apply your energy to each ride in an optimal manner.... (and still someday you just go ride and say screw the numbers)....

    This program I've been working on it since January 15th. I actually started refining the ideas to teach my wife and get her ready for ultra racing and eventually a 2 woman RAAM them might be in the future. It's working well for her; we made some mistakes and had to start over. and I was the experiment on myself tester; and whoa I learned a ton about myself and had to double back and do a bunch of research; then suckered Larry and another friend into trying the approach. (which means I gave them the general Idea an they each ran with it) I have a very interesting graph of Larry before and after the approach it was a very subtle tweak for him and some new tools and bang on paper it looks better now the season will tell the story. If he's ok with it we can put that before and after graph in this thread. So because of all that I have to tools at hand to conduct this project with no additional expense; so it really is up to every here if they want to join in.

    Keep asking questions I'll do my best to answer as I can. (Yes I'm working on official coaching certs, but that's going to be a long game, mostly it just gives me an actual goal that forces me to keep learning). That and I have two daughter who might make kick butt racers if they have mom's genes. :)

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