Farther, Faster, Fitter, Fun - (4F - The unofficial Cruzbike training team and support group)

Discussion in 'Cruzbike Class (Riding & Refining your Technique)' started by ratz, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. SamP

    SamP Guru

    I've been meaning to get a trainer for awhile, it's just I currently don't have anyplace to set it up except temporarily outside. There's usually several TravelTracs on craiglists here for about $50. Or I guess it's a PowerCal for less accurate, less precise, and less controlled on outdoor rides for about $70/$100. I checked my gym and none of their cardio machines of any type have ANT+ output, though some of them can record some sort of workout data to a USB drive.
  2. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    I've done the Garage (if you have one) just need a bug replant candle :( $50 for a TravelTrac ain't bad for a starting point.
  3. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    I have become adept at popping a wheel on the trainer to get my Vendetta back to "square" without stopping the session. Probably not the best thing for the headset but it works. So yeah that's a common problem.
  4. MrSteve

    MrSteve Zen MBB Master

    Yes, I also do this.

    Bikes with suspensions tend to wander out of true more frequently than the unsuspended Vendetta does.
    When the fully suspended Sofrider is on trainer duty, the rear brake hand lever gets bungee-corded to the handlebar: The rear brake helps to slow down
    the Sofrider's wandering.
    When the V is on trainer duty, pumped up tyres is all that's needed. The rear brake makes no difference.
    Finally, if my power is made smoothly and evenly, the bike stays put pretty well.
    These bikes teach us a lot about pedalling technique, upper body inputs and making smooth power in general.
  5. SamP

    SamP Guru

    Ok, trainer bought on craigslist...
    I guess I'm now in group A
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  6. unc99

    unc99 Active Member

    I've got a V20 on deposit, and hope to get a Kickr trainer by the next offseason (and to join 4F!). I'm planning to set up a "swing trainer", as shown in the video linked below. This should hopefully help (i) alleviate the unique issue a MBB has of becoming "off center on a trainer", (ii) give a more realistic road feel to relieve boredom and (iii) help train me in riding straight. Of course, I haven't tried it yet, so it may be more trouble than its worth. Ratz, as our resident (and very helpful) expiremental subject, have you tried this?

    Dave Arnold likes this.
  7. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Haven't tried it; looks fun and cool; I do think the rear would have to hang from the Axel and not the back of the frame; that way the weight loading would be the same as on the road.
  8. DavidCH

    DavidCH In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity

    Is this any good ; I've seen it slated many times. Users say it's not accurate enough. But is it accurate enough for the purpose you intend to use it for? Users say it's better to look at average power v live power readings.
  9. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    If cost control is a major issue; it's good enough for the things where averages are used.

    Example train with virtual power indoors; TR can calculate from the Trainer's documented power curve and your wheel speed.

    Then when riding outdoors on a planed pacing strategy. The powercal can give you a good Average Power, and a 30s rolling average power. Keep the 30s rolling average up on your bike computer and you can tell if you are running too fast or two slow.

    The Powercal calculates power based on the rate of change in the HR and a few other HR response markers. Powercal did this by looking at the HR and Power data for thousands of athletes using power taps and recording real world data. Then they reverse engineered the math from that. It's pretty much garabage at < 10s intervals. 15s is pretty good, and 30s outward it shockingly accurate. Because the powercal is doing math based on the changes in HR; and not the HR level itself; it doesn't get skewed by temperature; diet; stress etc. How high the HR is doesn't get used in the calculations; that's just an offset. So it's still a better outdoor measurement than the HR meter is.

    The powercal at $99 ANT+ only was a steal when power meter where all more that $1k. Now the powercal with BTLE/ANT+ is $129 and strain-gauge meters are dropping into the sub $500 range. Suddenly that powercal doesn't sound like quite as good of a deal as it use to that $129 is now a good chunk of saving for the power meter itself.

    If someone was on a budget; and need a Trainer, and an HR meter; and can't yet afford a power meter on the bike; then that person is the one that would be well served getting the PowerCal HR sensor; and the best trainer they can justify; That will get them the most utility until they can afford power meter for the bike. The last key point is: if motivated, you can do more with just a bike and a trainer; than you can do with just a bike and a power meter so you have to think it through a prioritize based on your personality.
  10. LarryOz

    LarryOz Zen MBB Master

    Feel free to share my data Ratz!
  11. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    Ok here's hydrated Larry....
    Red box area is pre-structured training. It was planned by Larry but at lacked some of the science the trainer road guys put into their plan designs and that includes resting. Shocking I know but most of use that get the bug hate recovery day and the missing endorphins. (Do Note: Larry's fitness level requires riding harder than the standard TR rides either with longer warms up; or +1+2 more difficult ones).

    Reading this graph
    Light blue = fitness
    Yellow = training load
    Purple line = Short term accumulated training load
    Blue line = accumulated intensity

    To get stronger you have to maintain a negative yellow; without blowing the top off the blue line and over-training.
    Starting in June last year fitness began to drop while competing in events and doing usual summer stuff.
    There was a big bump of fitness in September during the century a day experiment. Then all fall and winter
    without a structured plan fitness stayed level but a lot of effort was put in just to hold the line; intensity was high; load was low.
    Starting in March more structure and more sustained load; intensity under control; result steady sustained gains in fitness.

    This would be part of the reason N24HC was frustrating for Larry and a good set of lessons best learned at a "B" event; you can have have really good fitness, but that's only part of the problem. Don't put water in the bowl and the big dogs don't bark at the end of the day. That... and training for a 24Hr is different than training for a Century.

    But if there is any doubt that structure matters this graph should all but erase that doubt.

    Screen Shot 2016-06-08 at 21.04.20 PM.png

    Do you have put in constant effort like Larry; no not really. The based fitness holds pretty well. As a comparative example I'm just ending a period of time where training time was going to be light for May and most of June. Below is the same type of graph of myself starting-over with zero fitness in January. It shows there were 3 build blocks; then two months of not much time to train daily due to obligations; hence the planned test rides or "pseudo events" Notice the steady growth of fitness during the training. Lots of consistent effort to build it. But then once built even though I couldn't do a ton of training it holds up pretty well for 2 full months; during which I was out of the home for 2.5 weeks with travel and spent much of the time back scrambling to get caught back up. Maintenance rides scattered in when as possible just to hold off massive decay. This sort of demonstrates how you can indoor train hard in the winter and then ease way up in summer and go out and ride outside and really enjoy the fruits of your offseason work.

    Once you build the fitness it's easier to maintain (just don't take 5 months off like I did or you get to start over).

    Apologies for the graph overloads but they really do a better job of illustrating what adaptation effects look like; and they are a main tool we'll be using to track progress on the project.
    ((There are hundreds of charts FWIW, this is just a handy one as cover the big rocks in 1 spot))

    Screen Shot 2016-06-20 at 22.27.33 PM.png
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
  12. Cruzbike Chris

    Cruzbike Chris Well-Known Member

    I use a 35lb weight plate to keep mine in the "hole" even with the front and keeps me from drifting and sliding around. image.jpeg
  13. LarryOz

    LarryOz Zen MBB Master

    I just strap the weights to the back of my V when I'm doing mountain hill repeats. It's hard going up, but the added mass really makes it fun going back down! :eek:
    Cruzbike Chris likes this.
  14. Zzzorse

    Zzzorse Guru

    Seems you've bounced back and are in good form. You're also a nut.
    LarryOz likes this.
  15. Cruzbike Chris

    Cruzbike Chris Well-Known Member

    What a great attitude as well, bravo Larry.
    LarryOz and Zzzorse like this.
  16. trapdoor2

    trapdoor2 Zen MBB Master


    Doesn't look like Android users can play. I see nothing about Android device options in TrainerRoad. Otherwise, I'm interested in giving it a go.
  17. 1happyreader

    1happyreader zen/child method

    I either need to move the trainer to the pc or cough up a laptop.
    It is an app to be used on a stationary bike.
  18. SamP

    SamP Guru

    Yes, it's unfortunate that the Android app isn't ready, particularly since ~30% of Android phones have ANT+ support built-in. On the other hand, the app display is big and easy to read on a laptop screen. Generic USB ANT+ sticks are cheap too.

    If you don't already have one, I'd suggest a cheap tablet or laptop off of Craigslist. You can probably find something under $100 that's good enough.
  19. trapdoor2

    trapdoor2 Zen MBB Master

    Well, I have a Windoze laptop, so I can download/run the TR software...but it is the 'house' computer (ie, not available for usage while on an indoor trainer). I guess I don't fully understand the systems involved here. If I can collect all the required data on my Android Smartphone, can I xfer it to the Windoze machine and participate with the 4F?
  20. ratz

    ratz Wielder of the Rubber Mallet

    To make it work well you need something that can run the TR app near the trainer. The latest word on the Android App is that it's due around the Sept-Oct time frame in time for the indoor training season. So if you have android and don't want to jump through a lot of hoops; you'd be a good Candidate to join in around October. It's not like we are going to close the doors and keep people out :)

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