Sebring 2017 newbie

DavidCH

In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
drafting is key!
Talking of which... When is it good to meet up with the tribe? I am down at Sebring from the 9th. I am giving it a dummy run but not flat out. I think it's good to see the area where you have to throw your token in midway and have a visualization of the state of the road.

I don't usually draft as I don't think it makes you stronger. But if your ticker is doing 180 pulling the train and the guy at the back is only doing 160 then you can see that someone is going to win with a sprint at the end and it won't be you.

Guess I need to stick behind someone... Somebody 6'1 ish that's got a big wind shadow. o_O
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
My Garmin 1000 does give audible cues, but it's not loud enough to be reliable.
There's a recipe for configuring the Garmin 1000 for following a route with turn by turn that's really reliable. It's a combination of the correct setting and the correct type of route file. If I get some time I'll document it. I had to scrounge the internet 2 years ago to find it and get it really nice.
 

Ted

Active Member
Ratz,
About your Sebring training plan, can you explain what TSS and IF stand for? Does the "8 min test" have a significant meaning? I've done the Texas Time Trials a few times and some other long rides but have never done any "formal" training - this is all new to me. I'm seriously considering doing Sebring next year for the first time. This will be my first "race" since my near-miss (got brushed by a car) at my last TTT a couple years ago. Thanks.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Hi Ted,

Big topic but here's some answers.

TSS, IF, FTP and a host of other metrics are objective measures for planning workouts in a structured fashion. They allow us to scale workouts based on the fitness of a rider as measured by a power meter. These are all published measures from TrainingPeaks and developed by Hunter Allen, Andrew Coggan and Joe Friel. They were the gold standard for training with power and pretty much everyone licensed them (Garmin for example), or reverse engineered (Strava for example) for use in their training products.. There are some new proprietary measures from Training peaks that are better, but that's the land of coaches right now and they will take time for athletes to learn.

http://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/articles/204071944-Training-Stress-Scores-Explained

So an Athlete's FTP is measured by a 8 minute test, 20 minute test, or a 1 hour "Race" data file. The resulting FTP value is a relative measure of how hard you can sustain work before you blow up. It's often mistakenly thought of as your 1 hour sustainable power but it's really a range of about 35minutes - 70 minutes. The creators state this and everyone ignores it and over simplifies it to "1 hour power" (humans be lazy).

When you ride at your FTP when you hit your limiting time you basically fall right off the cliff from a power output measure.

Once we know you FTP we can make workouts and "scale" them to your personal ability. The same workout can be then used by 1000's of people and they can get the same "difficulty" from it relative to their strength because of the scaling. TSS then tells us how much training stress you incurred relative to your strength. As you do this training.

Each week a person can only absorb so much TSS. Age, genetics, and fitness determine what you can handle. This is why there are Low, Medium and High volume plans. A single person can absorb more TSS when "in shape" than when "out of shape". So a beginner or someone lacking fitness will need to do a low volume plan. As they get stronger they can progress up to a Mid volume plan and eventually if they want to; a high volume plan. As we get older the high volume stuff becomes harder to maintain, and we some times have to drop back to the mid volume plan or lengthen the "Training Week" in the plans to be 8 days to insert extra rest days.

What do we mean by absorb TSS? That's the idea of exhaustion and recovery. As the TSS piles up you get more and more tired; and will struggle to exercise more and more. Aka fatigue. When you Rest and take the day off the body reacts to the TSS levels and adapts to become stronger out of fear that you might do that again in a few days. So each week we up the TSS then rest; then more TSS then rest. Each time we rest the body gets stronger. This is the important statement: training hard doesn't make you stronger. Resting AFTER training hard makes you stronger. If you never rest you don't improve. How often you need to rest is a function again of Age, Genetics and Fitness; and this is why there is a Low, Medium and High plan so that you can find one that walks the line between too little and too much rest.

Lastly we can only increase the TSS week over week for so long. Depending on the plan either week 4 or week 6 we have to "back off" on the TSS; because by the start of that week the athlete will be exhausted; so we do an easy week; by the end of the "easy" week the athlete feels better and becomes stronger.. (sometimes day 1 of the rest week is the worst of the entire 4 or 6 weeks block in terms of how you feel)....

After 4 or 6 weeks we then re-tested the Athletes FTP; if they got stronger then FTP goes up; this is important; follow along.
  • Your FTP goes up
  • The same workouts are now easier because you are stronger
  • If nothing changed you'd accumulated less TSS relative to your strength
  • Training would stall and you wouldn't get stronger
  • Instead you tell the training software that you are stronger by putting in a higher FTP value
  • The software sees the FTP increase and makes the workouts harder.
  • The hard workouts now give you the correct TSS relative to your strength
  • Your TSS is now accurate to your strength and you can continue to manage the "stimulus" you get from your training.
  • It's important not to be "macho" about FTP it's just a measure and what ever yours is you have to train to that level;
  • Don't compare FTP values to other people. Compare watts/kg over a time windows 1min, 5min, 20min, instead and if their's is better than yours then train harder.
So it's a cycle
  • Measure fitness
  • Train over a period of 4 to 6 weeks with increasing load relative to your fitness
  • Rest to fully absorb and react to the training
  • Re-measure fitness
  • Scale workouts to new fitness
  • Train over a period of 4 to 6 weeks with increasing load relative to your fitness
  • Rest to fully absorb and react to the training
  • Re-measure fitness
  • repeat 2 to 4 four times a season then take a Big rest of 3-4 weeks off and start again.
Now with all that as a background.

The TSS in the plans tell you how much TSS each week will throw at you; this helps the experienced athlete figure out whether Low, Med or High volume is something they can handle. The IF value tells them how much each workout is going to Hurt. This is useful for getting physched up ahead of time so you can take it; and so you can plan you eating so you have the fuel on board for the effort. If you FTP is correct, an IF of 0.65 is a cake walk for most people. 0.80-0.85 hurts, and 0.95-1.1 is cursing at the coach and puking on the pedals hard.


There is a lot more but see if after a couple of reads this starts to make sense.
 
Last edited:

Ted

Active Member
Wow! Thanks Ratz, for taking the time to explain all that - wasn't expecting that. It will probably take me at least a couple of reads to fully understand it all :).

I know from experience that a formal training program helps. In the past ten years I've run three marathons. The first two, I trained on my own - kinda helter skelter. The third one, trained with a group thru CrossFit Endurance. We did a lot of track work - sprints, intervals and time trials; longest run was 15 miles. Ran that marathon an hour faster than the previous two.
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I know from experience that a formal training program helps. In the past ten years I've run three marathons. The first two, I trained on my own - kinda helter skelter. The third one, trained with a group thru CrossFit Endurance. We did a lot of track work - sprints, intervals and time trials; longest run was 15 miles. Ran that marathon an hour faster than the previous two.
Very cool Ted: Follow Ratz's training plan and you'll tear up Sebring next year! Look forward to meeting you in person!
 

CruzLike

Guru
Talking of which... When is it good to meet up with the tribe? I am down at Sebring from the 9th. I am giving it a dummy run but not flat out. I think it's good to see the area where you have to throw your token in midway and have a visualization of the state of the road.

David: I plan to be there early Friday. That day I want to drive the course and become acclimated to the 70 F degree heat. (a little optimistic) I'm sure that other riders will be able to join me or you in exploring Florida. As we get closer to the event, other Tribe events will appear.

Welcome Ted. I'll add you to the list.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Wow! Thanks Ratz, for taking the time to explain all that - wasn't expecting that. It will probably take me at least a couple of reads to fully understand it all :).

No worries, lots of info out there; lots of bad opinions; Mostly that's because it's a lot of info to digest; if I can distill it in a meaningful way then it helps everyone. I usually experiment on myself to make sure I know what I'm talking about. Much of what you see now is based on what we started last January.

Follow questions are welcome.
 

Bill K

Guru
I was thinking of using Ride with GPS at Sebring but it's not too good. Guess everyone is right into their garmins. Does a garmin give you an audible cue? Guess I am a rookie? I played with it today... And if I followed it I would have lost the race.
I have used Garmin's on a number of brevets up to 600k (the 820 till it broke, and now the 1000). If you have an out-and-back course the Garmin can send you "back" before you have been "out" so you do have to be careful when you look at it.
If you use one, program one of the data fields to display "distance to next". It will then tell you the distance to the next turn (such as 3 miles... 200 feet... 10 feet). Very useful and you do not need to hear the beep since you probably will look at the screen regularly.
Also, battery life will be an issue on the 12/24 hour rides. The battery typically lasts 8 to 10 hours. I always had to charge it during the ride. I used the dynohub, but an external battery also works well.
Lots of good details about using gps on Mark's blog (Mark is president of Seattle Randonneurs):
http://rusa64.blogspot.com/2014/06/whos-in-charge-anyway-garmin-notes.html
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Since we went down the training rat hole here is a very instructional graph.

Notice the hard bend in the power graph downward. That's an athletes mFTP indicator. The cliff you can't avoid. Every single person's power graph has this shape. There are no exceptions that's just how it works. They all decline fast, then level out for awhile and then crash at the limit.

For this athlete FTP was 166w and the time to crash at FTP was 27.75 minutes. Best to derive this value on the last 90 days of data. In the case of this Athlete Watts/Kg is really good. To make this rider stronger and faster we either train to move 27 minutes to out to say 40; or we raise FTP so they can ride longer at a sub FTP value and still be fast. The Sebring plan attacks both. It aims to raise FTP with 2 of the workouts each week; and two of them aimed to move the time out further. For most beginners raising FTP is easier and provides the earliest bang for the buck but you have to do both long term to improve. Since Sebring is an Ultra event we are using a blend approach and attacking both at the same time with the short time frame at hand. Still for most of us it's at best a "B" event as it's too darn early in the year. End of March or April would be a much better time to have the event if you wanted to really see quality efforts from across the entire country.



Screen Shot 2016-12-15 at 12.33.08 PM.png
 

trplay

Zen MBB Master
Sebring is evolving quite nicely. Looking like 17 solid/ almost solid commits. I will guess we have a pretty good chance at over 20 Cruzbikers. If you have wanted to attend one of these events by all means, this is looking like a great year to do it. Plenty of time to get organized and make it happen. Don't think you have to be "racer guy ready". Come and have fun. Sebring is unique in that it is a good bike race that can stand on its own. But, watching the race cars on the track (Fri and Sat) is an extra hoot. Staying at the track side hotel is probably the best option. Get a track side room and watch the cars go through the S turn while sitting on your balcony enjoying a drink. For arrival time planning purposes I would propose we plan a Friday afternoon shake down ride and photo shoot. In the past the shake down ride has been once around the 11 mile loop. I might add it gets pretty hectic late Friday afternoon with all the comings- goings, hotel check-ins, and race registration finalization. IMO somewhere closer to 3pm than 5pm is best for this.

I will be camping on pit row. The 11 mile loop pit row not the actual race track pit row. Some thought should be made as to where you are going to set your pit on the 11 mile pit row. The track allows you to set up Friday afternoon and its a first come, pick your spot. The 11 mile pit row runs from the hotel parking lot to the concession stand rest room (Apx 600 yds?). In the past we have been allowed to use the electrical outlets that are along this row. Bring appropriate extension cords. First come first serve- no charge, RV's are welcome. The concession stand rest room is left open and has hot water showers all night.

Things to consider when picking your spot: One is if you get there late you'll get what spots are left (nothing is really bad). Since the 11 mile loop timing mat is at the restroom end of pit row riders must enter from the hotel side and go to the end of the pits at the restroom, through the timing mats and back out the hotel side. If you select a site up towards the rest room and where the timing mat is your pit and bathroom break is a one stop does all. The race director also has a rest stop providing typical goodies like bannas and such at this location. If you pick the end closest to the hotel the racers can tell their crew what they need when they first go by giving the pit crew time to get the goodies ready before they come back from the turn around. Pick the middle of pit row and you might have two stops, restroom & pit. The only advantage to the mid position is its a closer walk to the pedestrian bridge that goes over the race track. This will make the pit change to the race track a bit easier for those walking and not driving to the track. Whatever location, I would think everone will be more fun if we bunch up together making it easier to help out. One note. All pit crews, DF & Recumbents are very helpful to anyone needing it. Its just one big party. Just some thoughts.
 

trplay

Zen MBB Master
I don't usually draft as I don't think it makes you stronger. But if your ticker is doing 180 pulling the train and the guy at the back is only doing 160 then you can see that someone is going to win with a sprint at the end and it won't be you.

Larry my thoughts on this are if you pay to enter these Sebring type events you shouldln't handicap yourself. Especially if other riders have specifically targeted you. Those who haven't read "The Rider" by Tim Krabbe should give it a read. Those that have should read it again. I like to match our fast Cruzbikers to the characters in the book. Yep Larry you're in there. Oh how I hope our fast Cruzbikers can form a well oiled fast rolling train. Yes, I realize this is pretty much impossible due to their home training locations but still its on the wish list.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Larry my thoughts on this are if you pay to enter these Sebring type events you shouldln't handicap yourself. Especially if other riders have specifically targeted you. Those who haven't read "The Rider" by Tim Krabbe should give it a read. Those that have should read it again. I like to match our fast Cruzbikers to the characters in the book. Yep Larry you're in there. Oh how I hope our fast Cruzbikers can form a well oiled fast rolling train. Yes, I realize this is pretty much impossible due to their home training locations but still its on the wish list.

Yeah the training together is the problem, and it make it really impractical to truly get your wish the sexy way. To draft well you have to be wheel on wheel and you have to trust the person in front of you to be predictable. That takes weeks of practice together. This is why when you try to join someone else's well oiled pace line they look at you like you just barged in on their private dinner party.

Regardless of the gain in speed; you probably won't find me right on someone else's wheel. I might draft 3-4ft behind a stranger; but not wheel on wheel less than 1ft like I would with people I knew years ago. For one thing It's economics as much as anything. When it costs about $2k and 15 weeks of training to go to Sebring for so of us you don't want you experience ruined in a wreck caused by someone else. The problem is skill levels, if the stranger (to you) that is in front of you; eases up and comes backwards at you 1ft, when they are suppose to pull forward and over, your wheels touch and your day is over.

The good news is even at 4ft behind larry I still get a heck of a gnome powered draft, Riding at 28 behind him was pretty easy and he didn't even have his bike. I hate to think what kind of hole in the wind my wide body punches for him. So we get some benefit, but rotating echlyon probably not in the plan.

Auxiliary problem is the huge disparaty in rider watt/kg. If you take a quick inventory of our "known" riders with track times. You have Larry, Kevin, Jim and Jason in group A, Then it probably drops back to the mortal like Joe and Me in the B group plus a few people that we don't have a good measure on because we know they are strong but they haven't come out to play yet or I'm forgetting them. In the Women we have Maria in Group A and Tanya wondering where she slots in. I don't see value in Larry, Kevin, Jason and Jim slowing down so they can draft Joe and Me, and I'm not sure Joe and I blowing up to keep up with them for the first 50 miles is worth it unless there's big money to be had as a team. Speaking of Joe where the heck is Joe? If we had the time to practice guys Like joe and I can contribute by taking relatively smaller turns at that front in a 1ft pace line, in 4ft one we probably blow up too soon and get dropped..... and the thoughts go on from there. The dynamic changes a lot when you start slotting in "teams" with "budgets"

Last item someone really needs to make a sebring rule that only riders on the same "lap" can draft each other; but I don't think that's going to happen. or has it?
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Last item someone really needs to make a sebring rule that only riders on the same "lap" can draft each other; but I don't think that's going to happen. or has it?
I don't think they have a "rule" like that, but I'll ask the event coordinator.
Also with that 11 mile loop there are lots and lots of riders.
But I think it kind of "takes care of itself" at least for the riders who have not stopped and rested for an entire lap, as it is quickly apparent who is on what lap as to how fast someone is going.
All that said, however I don't think there is any rule against someone (on a team) just taking a lap off, and then pulling their teammate for one lap and then taking another lap off.
They really have no way of keeping track of riding on the course.
You, Jim and anyone else in the Century could have a nice rest and then could even hop into the 11-mile loop on alternating laps and "help" the other 12-hour "drafting" riders. (Wow - what an idea! :) )
The only "policing" I have seen is a random guy on a motorcycle trying to make sure the 24 hour non-drafting guys are really "not- drafting" - but from what I have seen they still seem to do a pretty good bit of that anyway.

The good news is even at 4ft behind larry I still get a heck of a gnome powered draft, Riding at 28 behind him was pretty easy and he didn't even have his bike. I hate to think what kind of hole in the wind my wide body punches for him.
When Gary and rode together a lot in my neck of the woods, Gary said he could even feel a significant draft 10-15 feet away. That makes it a lot safer with room and time to correct.
I've never felt comfortable 1 foot from someone else's wheel.
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Perhaps there is an audio book that I can listen to whilst I train on one of the 255 minute training rides.
Or watch my Sebring century ride on Youtube. Its just over that time on you get to learn the route too.
 
Top