Steering damper/stabilizer

[RojoRacing]

Indeed, steering damping as applied to MBB has nothing to do with preventing tank slappers (and not just because you, technically, cannot have one due to lack of a tank ), but because of massive steering inertia - to get rid of 'twitchiness', which is basically feeling of insufficient control over the handlebars. I should note that is much less of a problem with smaller riders due to how boom length adjustement is set up on Cruzbikes.

Would you recommend a one-handed person to 'man up and ride it anyway - it will go away'? Riding MBB, especially with narrow bars, is kinda like riding one-handed when it comes to level of control over the front end, I suspect. I think this is just psycology at work - "we are not handicappped, therefore we should not use 'steering aids'" Well, if you enjoy a challenge, I agree. If you just want to maximize your speed, safety and comfort - this is an other thing entirely. Especially when 'riding it anyway' to full adaptation may take years, thousands of miles and even never actually happen. (There are multiple examples of that, but we don't seem them here due to classic survivorship bias).

BTW! You said it yourself that you'll never use narrow bars like one Larry uses - because 'it will never work in the mountains'. And what if a steering damper would allow you to use narrow bars, and achieve higher speeds on flats while retaining full control on bad roads and high-speed downhills? That is a testable hypothesis, actually.

I'd never tell a one arm man to man up, maybe arm up but never man up. I'd highly suggest a one armed rider a dampened steering setup on a bicycle because he's working with a highly comprising input setup and can only expect a somewhat compromise end result. A one armed rider would never expect to descend like Peter Sagan but setting up every other able bodied two armed person on a sluggish setup isn't fair to them ether, it puts a cap on what they can achieve.

I'm actually rather insensitive to those who lack the skills or desire to risk and adapt. My who life has been based around racing and risk. Don't expect me to go out of my way to help those who don't want to risk their own time or skin. I help people who are already trying to help themselves.

I feel Larry's setup is flawed in several ways for how I like to ride. If I was stuck with his narrow bar setup id be fine on the flats as is he but I'd probably need to persue a dampner for the mountains but again this is like the one armed man, it's a bandaid for a poor setup.

 

[Balor]

A one armed rider would never expect to descend like Peter Sagan but setting up every other able bodied two armed person on a sluggish setup isn't fair to them ether, it puts a cap on what they can achieve.

Hmm! Your comment, an other comment I've seen when researching steering dampers plus my own experience with MBB got me thinking... that comment was something along this lines:
"Steering damper is, basically, a steering rate limiter".

If mechanism of action of a steering damper when it comes to steering is not actually DAMPING it, but limiting your steering speed so it would never truly kick in - than you are right and this is only a band-aid indeed, because this is the only way of dealing with it (besides being inhumanly strong, having a set of bars as wide as on a motocycle or using both your arms and legs in tandem to steer), only you need to learn this 'controlled and deliberate' way of steering yourself. Or having a short boom .

Unfortuantely, it also means that 'narrow bar setup' would never be truly viable on long-boom MBB when you get to really technical stuff.
Still, equipping at least 'demo bikes' with adjustable steering dampers sounds like a good idea, so is giving a buyer an option to rent one, and tune it to progressively less and less damping and than give it back once you get fully adapted... or buy it out if you don't. *shrugs*

 

[Black Hawk Down]

A dampner is never going to stabilize the V20 like you are hoping without handicapping the feel of the steering which is not an acceptable trade off. What I designed and made is more soft steering limiter for when pushing or walking the bike around. I still use my original prototype on my V20, in fact I still haven't gotten around to painting the bare aluminum clamp. If you feel unstable on the bike you need more practice to become a better rider on it, there are no pills or apps for skill. The V20 will never match a DF bike for stability over lumpy rough roads but with a very careful touch you can control the bike to near the same performance. You are riding a high performance race machine, it's not going to handle like a family sedan.

Well... maybe, but like I said, I'm not willing to risk my life suddenly shooting out in front of a fast moving car or truck, which I have many in my commute, while gaining experience. I've read a lot of speculation here about how dampers will only make steering worse, and you just need more training. That may be true, but where's the evidence that they won't help? Anyone try one on a Vendetta? I'm going to give it a try. If a damper works, great! If not, I'll remove it, and let everyone know the result.

Bill

 

[Black Hawk Down]

What size tires are you using; how much pressure are in them?

Hutchinson Fusion 5 All Season Tire - Tubeless Black, 700c x 25mm. I usually ride with 120 lbs as I weigh about 245 lbs. I haven't pumped them up for about 10 days and I noticed that the bouncing from road hazards is not quite as bad. Since they're tubeless, I may drop the pressure a little to see what happens.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

I've read a lot of speculation here about how dampers will only make steering worse, and you just need more training. That may be true, but where's the evidence that they won't help? Anyone try one on a Vendetta?

After going back to the start of the thread, I can answer my own question. tiltmaniac, LarryOz and Greenspeed have all used dampers and seem to think they help. I'm still interested in a report from anyone who has installed a damper and found it made things worse, or at least, not better.

 

[RAR]

Hutchinson Fusion 5 All Season Tire - Tubeless Black, 700c x 25mm. I usually ride with 120 lbs as I weigh about 245 lbs. I haven't pumped them up for about 10 days and I noticed that the bouncing from road hazards is not quite as bad. Since they're tubeless, I may drop the pressure a little to see what happens.

I have found that wider tires and lower pressure make my bike less nervous. I'm currently running 32's at 55lbs on my S30.

 

[Balor]

I have found that wider tires and lower pressure make my bike less nervous. I'm currently running 32's at 55lbs on my S30.

That would be true for every bike that uses positive trail, actually. Trail self-stabilizing force depends on traction, wider tires with more pressure give you more traction.

After going back to the start of the thread, I can answer my own question. tiltmaniac, LarryOz and Greenspeed have all used dampers and seem to think they help. I'm still interested in a report from anyone who has installed a damper and found it made things worse, or at least, not better.

Jason has been using them on motorcycles, obviously. Note that he rides at the top ranges of human effort and enjoys a challenge, so his experience may not be relevant to you.
Anyway, while having a steering damper may or may not be beneficial for someone already experiences with FWD MBB, for a beginner it can be nothing BUT helpful. It may extend the adaptation process, but would make it safer overall.

 

[super slim]

I have found that wider tires and lower pressure make my bike less nervous. I'm currently running 32's at 55lbs on my S30.

Is that 700c*32 tyres on a S30?

 

[RAR]

Yes

 

[Black Hawk Down]

I have found that wider tires and lower pressure make my bike less nervous. I'm currently running 32's at 55lbs on my S30

I agree with using fatter tires, just wasn't sure what I could get away with on the V. I'm surprised you could fit 32's. I will be looking for fatter tubeless to try. As far as lower pressure, I am limited by my weight. At 55 lbs, I'll be riding on the rims. With tube tires, I need 120 lbs to prevent pinch flats. With the tubeless, I'm not yet sure how low I can go. I'm not worried, at this point, about road resistance. I can't go fast now anyway.

 

[super slim]

http://www.adventurecycling.org/default/assets/resources/200903_PSIRX_Heine.pdf
Use this link to find out the optimum tyre pressure for the load on your tyre, depending on its width, to give a 15% drop in tyre height for minimum rolling resistance and max. comfort!!

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Use this link to find out the optimum tyre pressure for the load on your tyre, depending on its width, to give a 15% drop in tyre height for minimum rolling resistance and max. comfort!!

Thanks for the article. I read it and, without taking the time to carefully measure the weight on each wheel, I assumed it's 50% for each. My bike and I together weight 269 lbs. That's 135 lbs for each wheel. With my 25C tires, that puts me at 120 psi. Which is what I normally ride. This means if I drop to a lower pressure, I will significantly affect road resistance. With 32 mm tires, I could drop down to 80 psi! Guess I'm going shopping. Hope they fit...

 

[RAR]

With the stock Cruzbike wheels the 32's barely fit on my S30, with the wider wheels I put on I had to do some grinding. I'm not sure what will fit on the V.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

I saw this image from a Greenspeed link:

Like the idea to try out but didn't want to drill anything until I'm sure it's going to work. I rigged up this:

Not sure that image will come through. It's not showing while typing the post. Basically I looped the bungee over the steering post and hooked it at each side of the seat. I used twist ties to pull the two bands together so they won't rub on my legs.

I did a little riding around and it seemed more stable to me. I need to take it out on the road and bring it up to something over 20 mph to really test it. If it helps, it's staying on. An added benefit is the steering doesn't flop to the side when moving the bike. I would like to try the Viscoset headset damper from Cane Creek but I don't want to install it myself and the bike shop near my place won't do it. He decided it wouldn't help. Seems to me he should give advice then do what the customer want's as long as it's safe. I haven't given up on the idea, just want to see how the hillbilly version works first.

 

[RojoRacing]

Not sure I'd follow the innovations of someone who installs their brake caliper on the wrong side of the fork.

 

[1happyreader]

Not sure I'd follow the innovations of someone who installs their brake caliper on the wrong side of the fork.

aero,, baby,,, aero

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Let's try that image again...



Like I said. It's temporary to test the concept. If I see value, I'll proceed with a permanent, professional stabilizer. So far so good.

 

[RojoRacing]

The bungee becomes more effective the more you turn the bike and it is forced to stretch further. That means in the first 10 degs of turning it has practically zero effect before the effect ramps up very quickly as you turn the bars more. The thing is as soon as you're rolling the amount you move the bars to maintain balance at even lower speeds is less then 10 degs and ass you go faster your steering inputs become even smaller still. This means you shouldn't feel anything while you're riding along a road but you will feel a little bit during stuff like parking lot drills. The thing your going to love most about it is pushing the bike around by hand, I can walk my V20 just by holding the headrest and steer it around just by leaning it a little.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

That is very interesting. Just curious, what speeds are you reaching when you start having steering problems?

Greater than 20 mph and less than 10 mph. Between 10 and 20 I have no stability issues. I took it up to 31 today and had several brief cardiac events.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

The bungee becomes more effective the more you turn the bike and it is forced to stretch further. That means in the first 10 degs of turning it has practically zero effect before the effect ramps up very quickly as you turn the bars more.

Well.. based on today's ride, I have to disagree. It was noticeably better with the stabilizer on a 25 mile loop today. It doesn't eliminate the issue but I felt much better. I agree that there is much more benefit as the steering angle increases, but the bungee is preloaded with a lot of force so the torsional forces are fairly high, even with low angles. I'm going to leave it on for now.