Steering damper/stabilizer

[Balor]

Well.. based on today's ride, I have to disagree. It was noticeably better with the stabilizer on a 25 mile loop today. It doesn't eliminate the issue but I felt much better. I agree that there is much more benefit as the steering angle increases, but the bungee is preloaded with a lot of force so the torsional forces are fairly high, even with low angles. I'm going to leave it on for now.

Yea, this is exactly what I was going to suggest. Elastomers have very nonlinear spring rates, hence "preloading" is a must. Or use a 'real', metallic spring.
An other benefit of metal spring is that it should last pretty indefinitely, unlike must rubbers. I'm not an expert on polymer chemistry, but some polyurethane rubbers are extremely resilient and have extremely low creep and set - and in fact used instead of steel springs with better effect... however it should be up to Cruzbike RnD to find those compounds and apply them to their bents.

So far they deal with the problem mostly by ignoring that it exists, as per my impression .

 

[RojoRacing]

Yea, this is exactly what I was going to suggest. Elastomers have very nonlinear spring rates, hence "preloading" is a must. Or use a 'real', metallic spring.
An other benefit of metal spring is that it should last pretty indefinitely, unlike must rubbers. I'm not an expert on polymer chemistry, but some polyurethane rubbers are extremely resilient and have extremely low creep and set - and in fact used instead of steel springs with better effect... however it should be up to Cruzbike RnD to find those compounds and apply them to their bents.

So far they deal with the problem mostly by ignoring that it exists, as per my impression .

You make it sound as if cruzbike makes no effort in this department. You don't see specialized on their forum descusing every dead end and development process of each one of their innovations do you? As a company you can't really expect them to publicize a bunch of testing they do for a innovation that they may not implement and sell.

Some of you guys may not have intended to sound so harsh of cruzbike's method of development but some of you sure are coming off as such.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Some of you guys may not have intended to sound so harsh of Cruzbikes' method of development but some of you sure are coming off as such.

I haven't read anything "harsh" on Cruzbikes here. Just constructive criticism. I think anyone taking the time to post here is a fan of Cruzbikes, but it seems a good place to iron out issues we see, or think we see in the designs. The short time that I've been riding my V20 has been quite an experience. Definitely love-hate. Were it not for the support and advice from people on this forum, I probably would have given up and sold the bike thinking it was unrideable. I've come a long way from the first day where I sat on the bike, put a foot on the pedal, then fell over onto my side. I have enough experience with DF's (>45 years) to know an inherently stable or unstable bike design. I've owned both. For me, the jury is still out on the V20. I know that with enough practice one can develop the ability to ride a bike with inherent instabilities. I've done it. I prefer to use technology to stabilize a design rather than training. Since I would like to keep my V20, I'll seek any advice on how to make it more stable for me, preferably using technology. I hope that didn't sound too harsh. I think that Cruzbikes has a great line of bikes and seems to be a high quality company. That doesn't mean they don't need a little criticism once in awhile. I'm sure that they can take it.

 

[Bentas]

Don't know about the rest of you but I'm pretty sure I dont want a loaded bungee that close to my crotch!

I agree , it's nuts!

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Don't know about the rest of you but I'm pretty sure I dont want a loaded bungee that close to my crotch!

No guts no glory :0

 

[Black Hawk Down]

My plan is to ride the V20 a couple of weeks, mostly commuting to work, with the bungee, then remove it to see if I notice a difference. If it's not significant, I'll leave it off. If suddenly it's much harder to control, I'll look into using a steering damper. I'll report back then.

 

[Balor]

My plan is to ride the V20 a couple of weeks, mostly commuting to work, with the bungee, then remove it to see if I notice a difference. If it's not significant, I'll leave it off. If suddenly it's much harder to control, I'll look into using a steering damper. I'll report back then.

Steering damper and 'flop stop' serve different functions... both beneficial, mind, but different.
Flop stop SHOULD be a permanent, factory-installed accessory on MBB bikes with "conventional" geometries - just like one on flevobikes (in their case, they should indeed be barely rideable without it, and extremely hard to carry around due to flopping around). At the very least, it makes the bike much easier haul around - that alone justifies that, and it providing some very necessary 'retun to center' force is also an extremely welcome benefit.

If Jason is right, steering damper is indeed only a 'fix' until you'll learn to deal with steering patterns that get around the steering inertia. BOTH steering damper and flop stop deals with potentially dangerous "oversteering" that can end with you swerving into a side lane or into a ditch before you picked up the skills to deal with it, but unlike frop stop, damper *might* provide no long-term benefits (and *might* prevent you from achieving very high skills).
Still, I most welcome you to try it, because more data very important.

Some of you guys may not have intended to sound so harsh of cruzbike's method of development but some of you sure are coming off as such.

I don't expect (though would be quite interested) to have them post 'build logs' of their innovations.
Yet, so far I've yet to see them even acknowledge the problems that, most definitely, costs them clients, sales and reputation.

And again, it clashes with their stated 'end bikism' motto. "Promote elitism and tribalism", that's more like it. Yes, this was harsh. It was intended as such.

 

[bladderhead]

mostly commuting

Going down a straight road at 40mph is an achievement that requires athleticism, but the bike almost steers itself. Commuting is the way to learn to really manoeuvre it and get used to it. Better than doing 8's in the carpark, because when commuting you are forced to steer without thinking about it. Soon you will be riding like a messenger on a fixie.

 

[super slim]

From my experience, doing the figure of 8 exercises at the beginning, would have reduced my learning curve a LOT!!!!

 

[bladderhead]

In my life, one thing have I learnt: I am far better at giving advice than I am at taking it.

 

[super slim]

As Tim the Toolman said "REAL Men do not need instructions"!!
I wonder why my wife gave me, a green sweater with this all over the front????

 

[RojoRacing]

My plan is to ride the V20 a couple of weeks, mostly commuting to work, with the bungee, then remove it to see if I notice a difference. If it's not significant, I'll leave it off. If suddenly it's much harder to control, I'll look into using a steering damper. I'll report back then.

I happened to do exactly this between version 1 and version 2 of my design just because there was a 3 day lapse between getting one off sndbthe other on. Most notable was I hated pushing the bike around the shop or parking it all over again. I could feel the lack of dampener on initial takeoff simply because it wasn't fightly me when making my initial big steering weaves to take off. Once I got rolling I completely forgot about not having it until I was done and got off the bike.

Maybe it only helps balance for a week for new riders, then is forever an effective pushing and parking assist. Maybe the balance assist affect is 20% mechanical and 80% placebo but the human mind is powerful so placebos are just as effective.

 

[Balor]

Maybe it only helps balance for a week for new riders, then is forever an effective pushing and parking assist. Maybe the balance assist affect is 20% mechanical and 80% placebo but the human mind is powerful so placebos are just as effective.

I should also note that 'you don't get a second chance to make a first impression'. When people demo bikes, very simple things like this can sway (or put off) a potential customer.

 

[Zzzorse]

I happened to do exactly this between version 1 and version 2 of my design just because there was a 3 day lapse between getting one off sndbthe other on. Most notable was I hated pushing the bike around the shop or parking it all over again. I could feel the lack of dampener on initial takeoff simply because it wasn't fightly me when making my initial big steering weaves to take off. Once I got rolling I completely forgot about not having it until I was done and got off the bike.

Maybe it only helps balance for a week for new riders, then is forever an effective pushing and parking assist. Maybe the balance assist affect is 20% mechanical and 80% placebo but the human mind is powerful so placebos are just as effective.

I wish your design was standard equipment.

 

[RojoRacing]

I wish your design was standard equipment.

After a year my headrest clamps became standard equipment. Maybe in the future so will my BOOM Suppressor. Yes I totally just filed copyright for that name.

 

[RojoRacing]

Even more awesome would be if photo bucket hadn't taken down all the pics of the cool inovations I've posted on the forum over the years.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

but unlike frop stop, damper *might* provide no long-term benefits (and *might* prevent you from achieving very high skills).

What "very high skills"? I just want to ride my bike on the road as fast as possible and not crash. If a damper helps me do that, I'm done. I'm not planning any circus acts . A frop stop is a nice benefit, but not my primary objective.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Going down a straight road at 40mph is an achievement that requires athleticism, but the bike almost steers itself. Commuting is the way to learn to really manoeuvre it and get used to it. Better than doing 8's in the carpark, because when commuting you are forced to steer without thinking about it. Soon you will be riding like a messenger on a fixie.

I have no concern doing 50 mph down a hill on my DF. No noticeable instabilities. I took the V20 up to 31 mph today. I was gritting my teeth, but managed. Every time there was a slight shift right or left, the bike wanted to take large swings to compensate, then I compensate and it starts damping down, and I start breathing again. I can totally relax going over 30 until one of these events happen. I noticed that sometimes its a slight breeze and sometimes a bump in the road. The good news is this used to happen when going over 20 mph. The bungee is helping.

I agree that commuting to work will be a good training ground, if I live through it. Lots of steep hills, intersections, cars, trucks, etc.

 

[1happyreader]

I have no concern doing 50 mph down a hill on my DF. No noticeable instabilities. I took the V20 up to 31 mph today. I was gritting my teeth, but managed. Every time there was a slight shift right or left, the bike wanted to take large swings to compensate, then I compensate and it starts damping down, and I start breathing again. I can totally relax going over 30 until one of these events happen. I noticed that sometimes its a slight breeze and sometimes a bump in the road. The good news is this used to happen when going over 20 mph. .

In general if you don't feel the difference between perfect harmony, acceptable / recoverable variations , and Oh My God ; you are ignoring or fighting input from the cruzbike.
Going for more speed when you are not comfortable with the vehicles handling seems like folly.
Your four decades of DF reflexes may hinder your learning cruzbike , if you are indeed trying to force the V20 to act like a bike.
Yes it has two wheels but its NOT a bike.
I encourage you to explore your cruzbike like a 10 year old with a new toy, and see what new things you can find out.

 

[ratz]

This is what we know and have lots of evidence to support from riders at large. (Apologies this is going to be brief I'm covering for staff vacations in the real world and I'm on selfimposed exile from the forums this week).

If the bike is unstable at speed; then the boom and headrest aren't configured for the size of the rider; I can prove that. Take any accomplished V20 pilot here and move the handle bars back 10-30mm yes mm towards the body and have them sprint on the bike; they will be all over the road and come back cursing and freaked out. It really makes that big of difference for power riding.

See the thread V20 finding that fit for starting point. Make sure the headrest is far enough back that you are looking forward and not at the sky. Pushing the headrest "in" makes you look skyward and it pushes you further forward on the bike. spend time in the parking lot and do slow speed figure 8's with your back off the seat; so you can learn to go body left, bike right. If the stabilizer helps that's cool use it, but if you don't get the fit dialed in no stabilizer will help you truly ride the bike.

Every great deal on a used V20 with < 100 miles on it; began as a V20 with the incorrect fit.